Talk:Ryan Giggs/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Time to re-add section on Super Injunction ?

Given that it is now reported by ars technica, I popose that we now re-add the following :

In May 2011, it was reported in non-UK media sources that Giggs had applied for and obtained a Super Injunction keeping his name out of a sex scandal involving model Imogen Thomas.

Comment please ? VERTott 22:30, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps a link to the article on the Striesand Effect would be appropriate. It seems to me that we have passed the threshold from unsubstantiated rumour in to fact some time ago. I'm not one for 'not smoke without fire' but I would imagine if the injunction had not been taken out by Mr Giggs he would've been protesting his non-involvement some time ago. Quite what all the talk of the NYT being some sort of threshold of reliability is all about I have no idea. I would think the population of New York would be as interested in the love life of an English footballer as I would be in the love life of a Texan baseball player... None whatsoever. 92.41.29.63 (talk) 23:09, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

There is also one now at Forbes here - that now tips it and have added it. VERTott 23:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I would support adding this but for the use of WP:WEASEL wording. WP:BLPGOSSIP still applies, and the sources are not naming Giggs directly.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 23:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I've clarified that it was not a super-injunction. The British press are going crazy over the use of "super-injunctions" when in reality only two of these have been issued in the past 18 months and both have now elapsed or been over-turned. Giggs is alleged to have taken out a gagging order that prevents details about his alleged indiscretions being made public. If it was a super-injunction the British public would not be aware that there was an issue at all, Thomas name would not be public etc. Woody (talk) 23:50, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

The term super-injunction is vague and does not have a precise legal meaning. It is often taken as meaning that the plaintiff is anonymous (as CTB is in this case).[1]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 23:56, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

In legal terms a super-injunction is not a vague term in any sense. It is a specific form of injunction in Britain that prevents the publication of any information pertaining to the injunction, even the fact that the injunction exists. Yesterdays report by Neuberger helps to define this area (this Guardian blog should help you]. Various elements of the media have whipped themselves into a frenzy describing anonymised privacy injunctions as super-injunctions. They are wrong and we should not be peddling their inaccuracies. Woody (talk) 10:37, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Ars has updated their article to name Ryan Giggs specifically. Wired also has an article now that also names Ryan [2]. -- Ned Scott 00:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Can I just add that breaking a super-injunction, or a gagging order, would be contempt of court. Moreover they can trace people by their IP addresses. That is also not to mention that there is no real evidence to support this claim. Wikipedia is not the place to spread rumours, or to break court orders.--Welshsocialist (talk) 00:10, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

The case has reached a tipping point. Wikipedia cannot airbrush this out of the article if it receives significant foreign media coverage. The real problem would be libel, but since it is now glaringly obvious that Giggs is the footballer involved, his chances in a US court would be slim.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 00:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

All I am saying is that I would be very carefull. This is a legal matter, and you could find yourself in contempt of court.--Welshsocialist (talk) 00:27, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

The court should watch it - it might find itself in contempt of Wikipedia if it's not careful! Halkyn (talk) 10:42, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Keep in mind that a large percentage of Wikipedia users/editors are American and these injunctions do not apply to them. Also, even if wrong, this would not come close to being libel or defamation under U.S. law. CavalierLion (talk) 14:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Quite an interesting legal point as to whether you would find yourself in contempt of court actually. You have to be told about a court order first before you can break it. This is typically why the media is made aware of various gagging injunctinos to ensure another outlet that was not defending in the original court battle does not accidentally report whatever was being hidden. Given the courts are happy to view things put on twitter and wikipedia as published, does that then mean that really every twitter user and wikipedia editor needs to be informed to ensure they don't say whatever they're not supposed to be saying? This would rather defeat the point of the injunction in the first place. Bambers (talk) 10:36, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

That's why "super-injunctions" were invented. There is no way to stop the news, once it is out, without injuncting the whole population, which would expose the existence of the issue to all. Therefore, super-injunction stops it leaving the courthouse in the first place. Once it's out, the injunction is useless against the Internet. Despite what Welshsocialist says, you can't really be accused of breaking an injunction if you havn't been given one in the first place. Halkyn (talk) 10:46, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

A point of order

As Wikipedia is based in the United States, it is not bound by any English court ruling, so if reliable sources name Giggs as the requester of the superinjunction, then there is no reason it should not be in this article: especially as this is a major story in British politics at the moment. We need to, however, keep an eye on the article to fulfill BLP claims. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:17, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I know that all courts take a very dim view of anyone who brakes an injunction, so a US court may order the disclosure of twitter users account details, providing that it can be shown that the owner of that account is likely to have first hand knowledge of the order and the source of the information they posted was that order. However just repeating what other news outlets have said is not likely to get anyone into hot water with a US court. VERTott 02:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I think there is zero chance that a U.S. court would ever consider giving out account details of an American for doing something that is completely legal under U.S. law - even if they had first hand knowledge. CavalierLion (talk) 14:29, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

There's an analogue with the Sasebo slashing; in that case, the only reason we do not publish the murderer's name is because there's no RSes for it (given the Japanese legal system's tight lid on the case). The only ever source we had was 2chan interpreting film stills from a news report on the slashing. Sceptre ^(talk) 02:47, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

If CTB gets the users, then (unless they have been injuncted) they can do nothing against them. As far as we know, the twitter users are not the subject of any court injunction. Nor am I. If one were to come through the door, I would be obliged to obey it, in Wales. But none has and I don't expect one will. Halkyn (talk) 10:50, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Can I just ask if the Forbes article really counts as evidence? The term used in the article 'Though he-who-cannot-be-named filed the suit as “CTB,” the American press, which is not subject to the power of the super injunction, have pointed the finger' This means Forbes is not directly confirming the story, merely repeating and rehashing previous speculation, it still is not direct confirmation. The term 'pointed the finger' means has been accused, no more, no less. 86.141.241.126 (talk) 11:37, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I hope I am not creating legal trouble for myself, but I believe El Mundo counts as a reliable source - assessed as one of the 'newspapers of record' of Spain. In which case, editors outside the UK familiar with both the English and Spanish languages are directed to page 61 of El Mundo for 11 May 2011. Sam Blacketer (talk) 17:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I've read before about Wikipedia's policy of being uncensored. Surely this applies to more than just nudity and swear words? Surely Wikipedia's credibility would be damaged if we didn't include information on the alleged super-injunction? 135.196.223.82 (talk) 15:35, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

As I understand it (and I'm no lawyer) there's a significant difference between revealing the identity of CTB and discussing it once that identity is in the public domain which it now clearly is. It's also worth keeping in mind that a Scottish Sunday newspaper has revealed the identity of CTB on the basis that English injunctions do not apply in Scotland. It would be an interesting twist if CTB's lawyers were to pursue action against Twitter but not against the Scottish paper. Time will tell 92.40.73.156 (talk) 16:56, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

The Sunday Herald has named him so that can be used as another source. --87.194.194.250 (talk) 17:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Ryan Giggs was named in UK Parliament as the holder of an injunction. I believe it would be unsuitable not to include this in his Wikipedia page. Nenuphar11 (talk) 16:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

References

Do we need to wait for Hansard? Named in Parliament

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/may/23/politics-live-blog#block-40

Not a lot to add really; but we can firm up the citations and give UK sources now. Remember this is about the injunction, not the affair. EasyTarget (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this should be added. I suggest "On May 23, Ryan Giggs was revealed by John Hemming in Parliament as a figure who obtained court injunctions to prevent publication on details of his personal life, making him a central figure in a debate over laws on privacy and online communication in the UK." Nenuphar11 (talk) 16:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Sunday Herald photo

It looks like the end here. The Scottish Sunday Herald has published this photo: [3] . Apparently, "the footballer's" lawyers had not applied for a separate injunction under Scottish law.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

If, as I suspect the case falls apart on Monday, and it is confirmed, then I think that a mention in the lead is in order. VERTott 13:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, and should also be on the main page. Unfortunately, Mr Giggs has spent a lot of money testing WP:DEADHORSE.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:50, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Great minds and that - see Talk:CTB v News Group Newspapers#Wikipedia:In the news. VERTott 13:55, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I was just going to post wondering if a mention in the lead is called for now. His past deeds are not really of interest, but his hilarious attempts to use the legal system to sue the whole world are worthy of note - perhaps one of the better examples of the Streisand Effect in recent years, as most other people who try it give up quickly, he has taken far longer than most to get the message. SFC9394 (talk) 14:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not currently WP:LEAD material per WP:BLP. The historians will judge how notable this was.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:54, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think a mention in the lead isn't in order. Mato (talk) 18:52, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I imagine this will become much more noteworthy when the injunction is inevitably lifted, as it will be the very center of a major political issue in the UK. Let's wait and see what happens. --Dorsal Axe 13:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

There's no such thing as an injunction in Scottish law. The nearest equivalent is an interdict, and they don't do anonymised interdicts, so the name would be revealed. Richard Gadsden (talk) 09:38, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

why did you delete the free use image, there is a rationale. Slowking4 (talk) 17:54, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

A bit of light relief

Our role in all this has been noted by our favourite Taiwanese news source. Sceptre ^(talk) 20:50, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, great fun, also mentioned here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 23:35, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Guy with beard - Evidence of name?

How do we know who this guy in the picture is? Is there any credible source for linking the picture to the name? Mootros (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources have not challenged the identity.[4]. Unless someone else looks very much like Ryan Giggs, no worries here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:22, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

How do you mean? The Guardian does not say Giggs. How can you challenge something without saying the name? Mootros (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

There is some scope for WP:OR, but also an element of WP:BLUE given the events now unfolding. This is a good example of the problem identified by Jimbo, as The Guardian would not be able to say "Yes, it's him" without breaking the injunction. Let's hope this farce is soon put out of its misery, The Sun is currently making a fresh application to lift the injunction.[5]--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:34, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

All I see is half a face of a guy with a beard. The analogy of the sky is absurd (how many "sky" is there in the world?). This is a case of blatant OR and should be marked as such. Mootros (talk) 14:41, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

No problem with the tagging for the time being, but since we should see an end to this nonsense shortly, there will be plenty more media coverage.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:51, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Eady turns down fresh request to lift injunction: I was wrong, it happens:). It looks like David Eady is unfamiliar with WP:DEADHORSE as well.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:16, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

(No; just a bit premature..) Looks like The Guardian has chosen to test the Attorney Generals asseveration that the press should not report injunction busting comments made under parliamentary privilege, it will be interesting to see which publications follow suit. EasyTarget (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Sky News and BBC News are 100% certain and are running Giggs as the top story. John Hemming was a bit naughty with naming Giles Coren, this may be why The Guardian is challenging it.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:02, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The "CENSORED" image from the Sunday Herald appears to be based on this one. And it's not a beard, it's designer stubble.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Sunday Herald image

This fails WP:NFCC#2 for this article (no multiple use), but easily satisfies NFCC for CTB v News Group Newspapers‎--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:04, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

i believe you're misreading that: it's "minimize use", i.e. no multiple use of fair use images in the same article, except when supported by critical commentary. your better argument would be that it dosen't add to the description. to which i reply, it adds to my understanding, illustrates the critical commentary that he was on the front page, and it's the only free use image in the article. the previous deletion, that there was no rationale was wrong. i see the same verbiage is in several articles, perhaps a link to the subsection about it is warranted, with a summary here. Slowking4 (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

This article now acts as a WP:SUMMARY for CTB v News Group Newspapers‎. Since no-one now seriously doubts that the footballer CTB is Giggs, there is little use in showing the image here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Change of name

from what to what? ref 9 doesnt help. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Is that for me? If so - Giggs has never been called Ryan Joseph Wilson, at least not since his birth was registered, there is nothing sourcing that Wilson was Giggs is surname (probably because this was never the case. His father's surname was Wilson, but he took his mother's name on his birth register). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrspy (talk • contribs) 18:29, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Apparently he was registered as Giggs, christened as Wilson, capped as Wilson and changed his name to Giggs. [6]. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:48, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

He was known as Ryan Wilson until at least the age of 14, as that was the name he played for England Schoolboys under. – PeeJay 08:08, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Now he's been named...

He's been names through parliamentary privilege, which as the second-highest legal benchmark in the land, means the press can now report it too. Thus, if the press can report it, Wikipedia can. What is the point in not putting it in the article when a) it's true, and b) any idiot can click on discussion and see it all anyway. I have a feeling the majority of the people blocking it are Manchester United fans. If you want links.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/8531175/Ryan-Giggs-named-as-Premier-League-footballer-in-Twitter-injunction-row.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13503847 http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/may/23/politics-live-blog http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3596356/Ryan-Giggs-is-Twitter-Prem-star.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389841/Ryan-Giggs-named-Commons-footballer-injunction-preventing-details-affair-Imogen-Thomas.html http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/law/article3030225.ece Let's end this nonsense now. 86.131.83.142 (talk) 16:26, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

It is in the article, see Ryan_Giggs#Gagging_order. doomgaze (talk) 16:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

You might want to check the article before coming on the talkpage to rally against perceived injustices. It has been in the article since 20 May after reliable sources became available in the US. Woody (talk) 17:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

alright ladies, chill out. everyone's so tetchy on wikipedia! all those stolen lunchboxes as children..... 86.131.83.142 (talk) 20:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Gagging order? In an ideal world, gagging orders would not be common, neither would these gossip papers. It is just the thing to give gagging orders a good name. Could it be that gagging orders comes from the doucument that is to the good of the people? --Stat-ist-ikk (talk) 11:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

National team

the total games for the national team is 63 apps, not 64! 187.58.10.162 (talk) 22:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

BBC Sport disagrees with you. Do you have a reliable source for 63? doomgaze (talk) 23:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

In fact, the source given in the article says 63, but for some reason 64 is listed. Mattythewhite (talk) 00:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It is 64. The originally cited BBC report cited 63 caps so far, with his 64th and last cap to come on 2 June 2007. Here is a BBC report of that 64th cap for Wales. ChrisJBenson (talk) 07:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Honours addition! UPDATED 9th October 2011

2011 Community Shield Honour SHOULD be included. 25 player medals are awarded to the winning side. Therefore Ryan Giggs was a 2011 Community Shield winner! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.130.188 (talk) 15:51, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Reference Page [[7]]

Can this be reviewed and updated?

2011 Community Shield Winner should be added to the honours list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.176.170 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 8 August 2011

Well he didn't actually play in the match. I don't know how the community shield works but surely it only counts if he appeared on the pitch? doomgaze (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

(E/C) I updated the page per your request, didn't actually notice that he didn't play in the game. So, I agree with you Doomgaze, it should probably be removed. Woody (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it for now (here). Cheers, doomgaze (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Acording to ManUtd.com, Giggs did not won that medal. see here, while players who played earn the medal DDG here. So therefor unless we find an actual ref, he havn't earn that medal.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 16:31, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

L'Equipe's all-time European Cup dream team

On 28 Sep 2011 Giggs was named in L'Equipe's all-time European Cup dream team http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2011/09/28/2686812/ryan-giggs-lionel-messi-clarence-seedorf-make-french

Rr011 (talk) 20:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

If that award had an article than it would have been added, we prefer not to add magazine-awards or something like those to the article.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 18:59, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

thank you for your work!!!

i am a fan of your work about Ryan Giggs.the only thing i want from you its tha t i want to see also the assist o f ryan.please!!! i admire and apreciate your work.i know that ryan has 122 assist in the premier league and is the leading of all.thank you for your time.my name is harris koskinas from athens Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.86.146 (talk) 18:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The Premier League assists did not counted before the year 2000, and after it didn't put all stats. We don't know the accurate stats nor we will ever know, so thats why we won't add it.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 12:56, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

well into....

"and continuing in this position well into the 2000s"

Out of date?

can't edit myself, semiprotected. 92.16.125.58 (talk) 19:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 February 2012

Giggs scored the winner in his 900th appearance away to Norwich City with the game finishing Norwich City 1-2 Manchester United on 26th February 2012.

Cartinmike (talk) 15:52, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed.raseaC^{talk to me} 21:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 26 February 2012

Ryan giggs has played his 900th game for manchester united on 26/02/2012

207.164.79.12 (talk) 19:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed.raseaC^{talk to me} 21:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 29 February 2012

Change games played to 900 Goals scored 163

82.44.181.236 (talk) 14:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

 Not done Games played and goals scored represents league matches only. Cloudz679 14:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

"in his 900th game for club and country"

There has been a discussion elsewhere regarding the appropriateness of including "in his 900th game for club and country", which follows. The two proposed sentences are:

• On 24 April 2010, Giggs scored the first ever league penalties of his career in his 900th game for club and country, netting two penalties in a 3–1 home win over Tottenham Hotspur.
• On 24 April 2010, Giggs scored the first ever league penalties of his career, netting two penalties in a 3–1 home win over Tottenham Hotspur.

As can be seen below, both CambridgeBayWeather [8] [9] and myself [10] have already removed the phrase and given reasons, but each time Pistachio disguisey has re-added the material. [11] [12] [13].

The sentence was added by Healy6991 on 24 April 2010 [14] and changed by Pistachio disguisey on 25 April 2010. [15]. Pistachio's edit was originally removed in part by Rms125a@hotmail.com [16] and PeeJay2K3 [17] before being restored by Pistachio disguisey [18]. I would appreciate input from other editors. User seems to be ignoring concerns about the validity of the text he is repeatedly adding and claiming ownership of the sentence despite evidence from five other editors that an alternative version of the text may be more in line with the encyclopaedia we are trying to build here. Cloudz679 10:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

The sentence you want to use, "On 24 April 2010, Giggs scored the first ever league penalties of his career in his 900th game for club and country, netting two penalties in a 3–1 home win over [[Tottenham Hotspur F.C.|Tottenham Hotspur]].<ref>{{cite news|title=Man Utd 3–1 Tottenham|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/8632533.stm |work=BBC Sport |publisher=British Broadcasting Corporation |date=24 April 2010|accessdate=24 April 2010|first=Phil|last=McNulty}}</ref>", has several problems. First of all it says that the match was on 24 April but there is no way to tell how many games he had played at that point. According to the Ryan Giggs#Career statistics at the end of the 2009-2010 season he had played 838 games for his club. 24 April was the 35 game of the season leaving three games to play, so if that was his 836 game then he didn't play in one of the last games. The main problem is that both the article and the source say that it is for Premier League games only so you can't include the games played in the FA Cup, League Cup, Europe, Other and Wales. There just isn't any sources. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 13:03, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I know it was his 836th game, because I originally made this edit a few days after the game. Use the edit history if you want to see for yourself. Then someone inexplicably removed "for club and country" rendering it inaccurate for months (no-one reverted on that occasion I note), and the remainder was recently removed. Yet another instance of Wikipedia gone mad. Pistachio disguisey (talk) 17:37, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

"I originally made this edit" is unencyclopaedic and bordering on WP:OR so I am removing this part of the text, which looks just fine without it. By the way the comment in the edit history seems to suggest that your wording implies it was his 900th game for both club and country, hence playing for them at the same time. Anyway, I'm not interested. It's not sourced, you've admitted it's original research, and that's enough to remove it. Cloudz679 22:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't put words in my mouth. It is not original research. It is addition. Following the game in question, the article itself already stated that Giggs had played 836 games for Manchester United and 64 games for Wales. The source for the 836 was Andrew Endlar's Stretford End.co.uk, the same source which is now showing 900. An edit shouldn't be disallowed simply because of the passage of time. The source for 64 has since been changed. Again, that is not my fault, but 64 is still sourced. And arithmetic is not original research. The text may look fine without it, but the same could be said of the vast majority of the article, and it featured in the article for many months, with no-one taking exception to it. And "for club and country" is a commonly used phrase in football. Pistachio disguisey (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

As Cloudz679 points out "for club and country" is confusing in that it appears at first glance he was playing for Wales and United at the same time. It also introduces the ambiguity that he may have never scored a penalty in any match before the 24 April one. Even if it was the 900th game that factoid it just trivia otherwise the BBC report would have mentioned it. Anyway the 900 needs a current source. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 13:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Copied from User talk:Pistachio disguisey. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

It is trivia. Tallies of precisely how many professional goals a player has usually are, especially when crossing borders such as between club and international football. The best thing would be to remove this piece of trivia entirely. Giggs's 900th club goal was notable, especially as these were all for one club: his 900th "for club and country" is not.

It's his 900th game we're talking about, not his 900th goal. I'm also not sure why one is notable and the other not, but you're entitled to your opinion. Pistachio disguisey (talk) 20:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have to agree with Chris - I don't think that "900 games for club and country" is particularly relevant and is a rather trivial intersection. The way it has been presented is rather WP:SYNTH unless a reference can be found for it? Number 57 11:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

As I've pointed out, there was a source which was accurate at the time of the original edit. Naturally, it has since been updated. Pistachio disguisey (talk) 20:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Thumperward, just to clarify, do you believe the fact he scored his first ever penalty is trivia to be removed entirely, or just the part quoted as the section title? Cloudz679 11:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The quoted part only, assuming that more than one reliable source highlighted these being Giggs's first penalties. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

New to this but I have to agree that it (the fact of scoring his first ever leaguepenalties) is not notable in the first place (never mind the 900th game business.But also, he has scored penalties before, just not league one (e.g. 2008 Champions league final). So the only games that are relevant to the 1st league penalties stat are league games surely? Ytic nam (talk) 14:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The point was that he had marked the 900th game of his career by scoring his first penalties ever in the league. That neither fact is notable is your opinion, but I would point out that the article currently refers both to his 900th club game and that he had marked the occasion, in this case with one goal from open play. Pistachio disguisey (talk) 20:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Good point, Ytic nam. By the way, thumperward, I added an additional reliable source (NY Times) so hopefully this will be the end of it. Cloudz679 14:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I had no problem with the source that was there, just the 900th game bit. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Cloud 679 it's nice to see you've actually looked into the history of the edit. However, you then moved the discussion here, received the "evidence from five other editors", edited your initial statement accordingly, and then informed me 7 hours 26 minutes later. I don't think forming a consensus and then informing the original editor is in the spirit of Wikipedia, especially when I took some time to compose a lengthy response, only to find that you had already circled the wagons around me. Perhaps this was a coincidence. But you didn't cover yourself in glory with your previous unnecessary comments "anyway, I'm not interested" and "you've admitted original research" which I hadn't done, and which contradicted your previous assertion that it was merely "bordering on OR". You're assuming "this will be an end to it" and I'm sure you're correct. I believe I'm in checkmate. But I hope that any further comments can remain civil, and that all trivia in the Ryan Giggs article be removed post haste. Pistachio disguisey (talk) 20:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it is clear that (1) the original editor was in fact Healy6991, (2) the evidence from five other editors was actually via edit summaries from the article itself quite apart from the discussion here, (3) we now have a sentence more acceptable to concerned users (three additional users took part in this discussion) and (4) we are now in a better position to make further improvements to the article. I certainly agree regarding the removal of trivia. Clearly this is a high-profile article and it is important to "get it right". I look forward, particularly, to the strengthening of this article, especially considering how much interest there is here. Thank you. Cloudz679 20:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 March 2012

• FA Youth Cup (1): 1991-92 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scholesss (talk • contribs) 16:34, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• We do not add youth cups to players articles, unless its continental national cup or World Cup by national team.
    – HonorTheKing (talk) 00:17, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Number of Assists to be added in Matches and Goals record?

Giggs supposedly has the maximum number of assists at 270+. However; a season-by-season breakdown has not been provided in the stats table. Players like Frank Lampard's wiki page however do have such stats. It is only fair that a season-by-season breakdown of his number of assists is added rather than a mere recognition of having "the highest number of assists." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.9.91.130 (talk) 04:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

And where would you suggest we find a source for this season-by-season record? Even if you find one, I can guarantee you that someone else will find a source that gives different figures. Assists just aren't reliable statistics, since they can be defined in so many ways. If a player wins a penalty, does that count as an assist? Ridiculous. – PeeJay 07:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The Premier League keeps track of assists, as does every FIFA and UEFA competition. I'm on my phone so I'm having trouble searching the official site, but Soccernet's stats are pretty comprehensive. It's really uncontroversial these days. Mosmof (talk) 14:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The Premier League only started counting stats like assists only in 2002, and even Soccernet don't give the same number as the Premier League in the seasons they did count. Like PeeJay said, no website write the same number as the other website.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 14:47, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I just checked and there does seem to be some serious inconsistency between sites. My apologies. Mosmof (talk) 17:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

what about frank lampard's page? what stats have been used there and how are they official?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.177.171.188 (talk) 16:38, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 October 2012

Ryan Giggs is now 600 appearances, not 599 (Section Records, Most Premier League appearances for a player, with 599.[85])

190.149.179.217 (talk) 04:54, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The source on the article does not verify the 600 number you requested. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:55, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 February 2013

Please edit Giggsy's overview, the section which indicated that he has scored in every completed season of the Premier League. After today's match vs Everton he has scored in every season (including the current one) of the PL.

Thank you

Nguyendactritoan (talk) 19:24, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done, Yep.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 20:28, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 February 2013

Ryan Giggs Total sppearances in all competitions is 932 - not 931! 2.24.16.132 (talk) 12:06, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done Your right the total appearances was not 931, however the correct number of appearances is 930 so that is what I changed it to. Camyoung54 talk 19:56, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 April 2013

5.65.135.221 (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Position: Left Midfeilder.

Giggs does not just play on the left side of midfield. He also plays as a centre-midfielder, or even in attack on occasion as a support striker. – PeeJay 18:58, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Update on Bio

Giggs has played his entire career at Manchester United from his 14th Birthday onwards, Yet it's not listed he is a one-club man, why? 46.208.236.102 (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Giggy's new role at United

As of this morning 4th July 2013. Ryan has been appointed Player/Coach at Man United. He will continue to play however he will be coaching the first time as well. His profile needs updating with me being credited for it ;) http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2013/Jul/ryan-giggs-appointed-manchester-united-player-coach.aspx 46.208.102.143 (talk) 10:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

International matches

The sum of international matches is 67 (63 for Wales - national-football-teams).--77.92.198.114 (talk) 13:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 June 2013

i just wanna edit the clubs he plated for. He have never play for Manchester City, but, it shows he play for Manchester city Lxw99 (talk) 10:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, he was in Manchester City's youth system for a little while. – PeeJay 10:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

He wasn't actually. He was scouted by Dennis Schofield the Man City scout while Giggs was playing for England's Boys and tried to get him to sign for City. Giggs went there as a trial but before any deal could be made Man Utd swooped in and Fergie signed him on his 14th Birthday. . So technically he never played for Man City he just had a trial. 46.208.102.143 (talk) 09:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Doesn't seem to be a consensus on this edit. -Ryan 21:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

References

European Matches

Giggs is the most player to appear in European Competitions and this should be added to records. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.252.137.185 (talk) 23:26, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request October 19 2013

I think Giggsy's main picture should be more recent! MilitantKOala (talk) 16:20, 19 October 2013 (UTC)MilitantKOala

It is limited by WP:NFCC. File:Giggs PL trophy.jpg is good but it is even older (2008).--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Pendlebury, not Swinton - please

..."signed for Swinton RLFC, forcing the whole family to move north to Swinton, a town in Salford, Greater Manchester."

Ryan's dad Danny Wilson did join Swinton RLFC (The Lions) but the family lived in Pendlebury (Beverley Road - M27), not Swinton. The (former) borough of Swinton and Pendlebury (postcode M27) covers THREE distinct districts within the town's boundaries, namely, Swinton, Pendlebury and Clifton. Even the Lions' then home stadium, “Station Road” (1929-1992) wasn't actually in Swinton itself, but just over the boundary in Pendlebury alongside Swinton railway station (also in Pendlebury). Even some natives occasionally get a little confused at times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.31.252.224 (talk) 00:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? – PeeJay 01:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2014

Cheexa (talk) 13:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 13:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

More claims about Giggs private life, notable enough to mention?

The newspapers today are reporting an affair with gigg's sister-in-law, should this be mentioned on the family section? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1394474/Ryan-Giggs-accused-8-year-affair-BROTHERS-wife.html Coolug (talk) 12:29, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

This is the top story in the News of the World today [19], and has a WP:PAYWALL but has been picked up by other sources. While it is not my immediate reaction to agree with David Eady, the normal rules of WP:BLP would apply here. Questions that need to be asked are: is it reliably sourced and notable enough for the article? Wikipedia is not a gossip column.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think a mention based on a accusation in a tabloid known for, let's say, occasional inaccuracies would be very clever. If he admits to it that'd be a different ball game. doomgaze (talk) 14:13, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it is widely accepted now that, starting shortly after his marriage, he had an eight year affair with his sister in law and even that his sister in law had an abortion in the months prior to her wedding to his brother. There are plenty of publications to reference and Giggs has never publicly said he did not have an affair or denied the pregnancy and we all know he knows how to use the court system if he thought this was libellous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.204.223 (talk) 02:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Ryan and Rhodri Giggs

This story is on the front page of The Sun today, and has been repeated by other tabloid newspapers, including the Daily Mail.[20] These are not the most suitable of sources for BLP claims, and Ryan Giggs has made no public comment on the material since the claims were first made last year. This leads to BLP issues, and it is also not directly relevant to his career as a footballer, for which he is best known.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

He is a public figure, and BLP gives guidance on allegations like these. In this case, it's an allegation made by his brother, which is certainly an acceptable primary source, printed in a major tabloid. There are of course multiple other sources, such as his brothers (ex-) wife and so on. There's no reason why this cannot be included until it's covered by the Guardian. As for the subject, it wouldn't be unheard of to include this as a one-liner under the family header. Certainly, it is as relevant to this article as the other family information provided, which is arguably even less important to his professional career (his sex scandal has had a measurable impact on his professional standing and sponsorship deals). And this article even has a decidedly misleading section detailing his "Public image". Either we should actually include information on his family and public image, including the negative parts, or we should exclude it altogether. It would be intellectually challenging to argue that positive family and public image stories are relevant, while all the negative ones are not. Anyanghaseyo (talk) 13:42, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

There needs to be a WP:CONSENSUS here, so input from other editors is welcome. So far in January 2012, nothing much new has emerged except an interview by Rhodri Giggs in The Sun repeating claims that were first made in June 2011 by the now defunct News of the World. This has been picked up by other media sources, but is still routine tabloid stuff. Because this type of sourcing leads to BLP issues, it seems best to leave it out for the time being.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

He is mainly known to football fans as a player but to non fans he is also well known as that guy who was shagging the bird off big brother and his sister in law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.204.223 (talk) 02:31, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: www.insideworldsoccer.com/2009/01/ryan-giggs-portrait-to-be-placed-in.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Struway2 (talk) 17:28, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Scored in every Premiership season

Lede says he has: he hasn't any more. Iliekinfo (talk) 19:10, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I've adapted what it says slightly. - 97rob (talk) 19:47, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Final match

His final match as a manager of UTD was against Southampton, not Sunderland, as stated in this page. 95.241.8.232 (talk) 12:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Not the most decorated player anymore

Maxwell surpassed him after his cup wins with PSG. A google search should give you sources that are current — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.104.187.199 (talk) 23:28, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I know Wikipedia can't be a source for itself, but Maxwell's list of honours doesn't tally with any of the google searches I did as you recommended. I'm not sure where people are getting a total of 36 honours from, since he didn't make anywhere near enough appearances for some of those titles. – PeeJay 07:40, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2018

{{subst:trim|1=

{{*Football League 100 Legends}} --MSKIDO (talk) 10:30, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 10:49, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2019

Ryan Giggs has only 162 premier league assists, it is still the record, but the article reports it as 271. 86.136.239.12 (talk) 12:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

 Done. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:35, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Not eligible for England?

There is very little information on Giggs's eligibility on the linked source. Other than a journalist saying 'He is not eligible' it doesn't offer much proof. I have been doing a bit of ancestry searching on footballers, and already have discovered that Giggs didn't adopt his mother's maiden name (Giggs) later in life, but was actually registered with the sirname Giggs. Giggs's father is Welsh Danny Wilson - his father was from Sierra Leone and his mother from Wales. Giggs's mother, Lynne Giggs, was also from Wales. Her father, Dennis Giggs, Welsh aswell. However, her mother, Margaret R Sidaway, may not be. There have been 3 Margaret R Sidaways born in England and Wales between 1916 and 2005. I can't see Giggs's grandma being born before 1916, and it's not possible for her to be born after 2005. Of these 3 Margaret R Sidaways, one was from Lancashire, the other 2 from Worcestershire. Even if she was born to Welsh parents, her birth being registered in England gives Giggs eligability to play for England.

There have been 2 Margaret Sidaways born in Wales in the same period. Margaret K Sidaway b. 1931 - Bedwellty, Wales (wrong initial) Margaret Sidaway b.1953 - Cardiff, Wales (too young).

A bit of back up from other users, and a suggestion on how to source this (you have to pay to access the information), and I will change the page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrspy (talk • contribs) 18:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

It's possible that the record of Margaret R Sidaway may be a misprint of Margaret K Sidaway. Also, it's not just a case of any journalist saying "he's not eligible"; Giggs himself has said on many occasions that he never would have considered playing for England as he doesn't see himself as English in any way. By the way, can you link us to where you found the info about his birth name? While it is Wikipedia policy to assume good faith, it is also required that some actual proof be presented. – PeeJay 08:15, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

It is possible and without Giggs's relatives or himself confirming the middle names of his ancestors then we will never know. With regards to his eligability, just because Giggs says he would never have considered playing for England does not mean he is not eligable to. The site with regards to this information is ancestry.co.uk but as stated without paying to access the records, you are unable to see it, therefore it is useless as a source on Wikipedia. MrSpyMrSpy 17:07, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I am a professional genealogist. Having done a bit of digging I can confirm that Ryan Giggs was born Ryan Joseph GIGGS and not Ryan Joseph Wilson - his parents were young and unmarried. The law at the time required that if a couple were unmarried the father would only appear on his child's birth certificate if he went to the registry office with the mother to register the birth. It may well be then that he was initially known as "Ryan Wilson", though technically he had been registered as "Giggs". His birth was registered in Cardiff early in 1974.

However, I am confident that Giggs is NOT eligible for England via his grandmother: Giggs' grandmother Margaret R Sidaway is, I am quite sure the "Margaret R Sidaway" born in Cardiff in 1935. (I'm not sure how the original contributor missed that, but some sources are defective). I believe that this lady is still living today (2012). Margaret R Sidaway married Dennis F Giggs in Cardiff in 1955. The INDEXES to births marriages and deaths can be examined in various online sources - some of them free. If anyone is sufficiently interested copies of the original documents can then be purchased for a fee from the Registry Office. It is actually a relatively straightforward matter to trace Giggs' family tree as his surname is rare. John2o2o2o (talk) 19:31, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Clarifying FIFA Eligibility Rules

Ryan Giggs is not eligible to play football for England because he has already played for Wales at the senior level. In his youth, he was previously eligible, but not after his first senior Welsh cap. He did in fact play for England at the Under 16 level. You can switch nationalities only when switching to senior international level, a FIFA rule clarified in 2004. Please note the early prerequisite condition of NOT having played for another country:

Current FIFA statute Article 17: Acquisition of a new nationality, states:

Any Player who ... [assumes] a new nationality and who has not played international football [in a match ... in an official competition of any category or any type of football for one Association] shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:

1. He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
2. His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
3. His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
4. He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

ChrisJBenson (talk) 00:57, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

This is not true. Giggs was never eligible for England. At the time, there were separate rules for the "Home Nations" that basically said that players could not be selected solely on the basis of living in another Home Nation for five years. These rules no longer exist which is why people keep trying to argue that he was eligible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.66.11 (talk) 16:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

England Under 16 Cap?

As far as I am aware Giggs' only appearances for England were at Schoolboy level (9, all as captain) yet the article lists one England Under 16 cap. He was never eligible to play for England including this age level. I can find no source saying he had an England under 16 appearance so I am removing it now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.111.249 (talk) 01:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

They are the same thing. IPOokap (talk) 14:59, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Correction to Ryan Giggs Roll of Honour

Hi

This is my first post so I hope I'm following the correct procedure. I'd be grateful if someone could kindly correct Ryan Giggs's roll of honour. He only won three League Cup winners' medals as he was out of the 2009/10 final with a broken arm. The complete squads for the final are on the relevant Wikipedia page.

Many thanks

Cicero71 (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

He still won the medal because he appeared in so many other games in the tournament. IPOokap (talk) 15:08, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2020

| youthyears1 = 1985–1987 |youthclubs1 = Manchester City | youthyears2 = 1987–1990 |youthclubs2 = Manchester United is the current infobox. Please change it to | youthyears1 = |youthclubs1 = Deans FC | youthyears2 = 1987–1990 |youthclubs2 = Salford Boys | youthyears3 = 1985–1987 |youthclubs3 = Manchester City | youthyears4 = 1987–1990 |youthclubs4 = Manchester United . You can unlink Deans FC and Salford Boys if you like. IPOokap (talk) 14:58, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Only teams considered youth academies are listed. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 03:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Sub judice

I've added an edit notice reminding editors that the article is sub-judice. Please remember that this also applies to this talk page, per the notice at the top of this page. Mjroots (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2021

113.11.81.49 (talk) 19:34, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

He was charged with two cases of assault on two different women in 22nd April 2021

The article mentions that already. PatGallacher (talk) 19:38, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:55, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Football League Cup 09/10

Why isn’t he credited for the 09/10 season? I know he was not playing in the final, but he played and scored in the semis? He should be listed as a winner. This is a fault. Mikserinho (talk) 15:04, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Please can you add Giggs' 'runner-ups' in his honours section as most other Footballers have this in their profile now. There was a fair few for Giggs

Please can you add Giggs' 'runner-ups' in his honours section as most other Footballers have this in their profile now. There was a fair few for Giggs — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dannyanders88 (talk • contribs) 08:56, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Some players have this as a way of making them look better when they haven't won anything. Giggs obviously has no need for that since he's won plenty in his career. – PeeJay 09:31, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Table of International Goals - Difference between "score" and "result"?

It is not clear to me what the "score" part of this table refers to. The "result" column is clearly the final score of the match, but what is the "score"?

For example, Wales beat San Marino 5-0 in the 1998 World Cup qualifier on 2nd June 1996. So what does the "score" of 4-0 refer to? If it can't be clarified, I think it should be deleted.

Marchino61 (talk) 01:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

The score is what the score was when the player scored the goal in question. – PeeJay 16:21, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I have added this information to the page, in line with pages for other footballers

Marchino61 (talk) 00:36, 20 August 2022 (UTC)